It depends on how you're adding these in. Are you doing it mechanically, ie they have to tame feats to do it? Or just gifting the character these traits? What are the ranges?
I think a safer way to go is to have him see normally, mechanically speaking, but just "skin" it as though he's using special senses to "see". Perhaps choose a race that has Darkvision or take the feat as a Variant Human. Mechanically, it's all perfectly legit, but your monk is reskinned as being blind but uses special senses to "see" instead.
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Daredevil effectively has those senses out to extra human ranges far beyond what humans could normally even perceive. In 5th, typically extra senses like darkvision and blindsight go out to 30/60 and sometimes 120. Twilight Cleric is a true exception giving Darkvision to 300, but as a subclass feature.
All of that being said, you have to keep in mind what each of those do and then how do they compliment. Both are listed below:
"A monster with blindsight can perceive its surroundings without relying on sight, within a specific radius. Creatures without eyes, such as grimlocks and gray oozes, typically have this special sense, as do creatures with echolocation or heightened senses, such as bats and true dragons."
A monster with tremorsense can detect and pinpoint the origin of vibrations within a specific radius, provided that the monster and the source of the vibrations are in contact with the same ground or substance.
Tremorsense can't be used to detect flying or incorporeal creatures. Many burrowing creatures, such as ankhegs, have this special sense.
So blindsight effectively gives the player the ability to see as a NPC would for mechanical purposes like attacks and skill checks. Tremorsense gives additional beyond that, such as noticing how many people might be behind a wall/door because of their vibrations.
Crawford has some interesting takes on both of those. Blindsight does negate things like blindness as it relates to darkness because it isn't using sight to perceive. He's also stated that just because a thing has tremorsense doesn't mean it automatically just KNOWS everything is moving, like say Toph from Avatar or Daredevil. If things are making active decisions to stealth, they can still make it past someone with these senses in the right conditions.
All in, there is a lot of mechanical grey area that would come into play here and it all relates to how creative the player is with how they describe their uses of these senses and how the DM perceives them. Using Daredevil as an example? Daredevil can hear someones heartbeat and know if they are lying. He can run his fingers over standard ink(not braille) and can read. His vision is omnidirectional at all times. Typical detection range is 500+ feet.
Further to that, my character has a homebrew item that grants him a kind of tremorsense. Recently our group encountered a wall of inky blackness, roiling towards them. With normal vision, it was easily seen, but it was invisible to my enhanced sense. DM ruling (which I agree with) is it would have to be a very heavy fog, or a creature in mist/gas form for my sense to perceive it. No problem now that I know and better understand, but a clear limitation to the sense as a balance for the benefits.
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Blindsight out to a range of 30 feet isn’t OP if you’re completely blind beyond that radius.
This. Daredevil doesn't have blindsight. Daredevil has a multitude of extraordinary senses that far surpass blindsight. He can individually detect ingredients in things provided there are at least 20 milligrams. He can detect heartbeats at 20 feet. He can track you by smell at 50 feet, and if hes spent approximately 5 minutes with you he can remember your scent and identify you by it. Even when completely blind and deaf, he can still detect people around him simply by the change in heat and air pressure around him.
This isn't just it though, he also has literal radar senses where he can project low level radio waves and sonar waves to give him that detection and 360 degree perception.
Blindsight isn't that. At all. Mechnically it just lets them see 30 feet, and beyond that they are literally useless.
A few further thoughts: A) echolocation vs keen hearing - these are the 2 aspects of sonar - keen hearing is passive sonar- its range is much further than active (echo location) and, while it does give you a sense of distance and direction it doesn’t pinpoint things. (the teacher in the class hears you whispering and knows it’s from the left rear corner but isn’t sure which of the 3 of you in the corner is whispering on a test( so he “fireballs” the corner failing all 3 of you for cheating)). Echolocation is active - you create the sounds and listen for the echos allowing you to be much more precise in direction and location - but only in a limited range. Stealth can negate keen hearing but not echolocation. (Years ago I snuck up on a wild rabbit and touched it by walking very stealthily from directly behind it for about 30’ ( on gravel in cowboy boots no less)). B) Tremor sense - first of all I as a DM would require that the character not be wearing boots/shoes/sandals of any sort - you have to be in contact with the ground to feel the tremors. That or be as close to nude as possible to feel the air pressure changes ( air tremors). So basically monks, barbarians and maybe sorcerors and wizards. I would also rule that the mage armor and shield spells block its action with their force effects. As with keen hearing since tremor sense is a passive sense stealth would be able to negate it ( stealth check vs perception check).
That’s why I suggested 30 feet. 30 foot of blindsight and blinded beyond that radius, and cannot use blindsight if deafened seems fair to me.
Edit: Maybe add in keen hearing and smell too for advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on hearing and smell.
I would agree generally especially if you keep the stealth vs perception checks. Also, remember smell perception is effectively negated by approaching from down wind so you may still have a stealth vs perception check there as well.
That’s why I suggested 30 feet. 30 foot of blindsight and blinded beyond that radius, and cannot use blindsight if deafened seems fair to me.
Edit: Maybe add in keen hearing and smell too for advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on hearing and smell.
I would agree generally especially if you keep the stealth vs perception checks. Also, remember smell perception is effectively negated by approaching from down wind so you may still have a stealth vs perception check there as well.
Mechanically, there are no advantages to height when it comes to smell or hearing based perception checks. It is about pure distance.
I say this because if a character is willing to go through with this character concept, finding ways to hinder them just blows. Even if it might play out in real life, this isn't real life, its a fantasy table top game.
think about it for a sec would tremor sense not automatically detect something if it's weight passed over a certain threshold to the point where it would be like: "man, north 500 feet, approaching, 50 feet per second, 120.6 lbs."
certainly, the heavier/stronger the "foot stomp" the better able tremor sense would be at detecting the foot falls. However, it's quite possible for a man (or an elephant for that matter) to place their feet carefully and lightly creating no tremors or such weak ones that tremor sense becomes useless - hence the stealth check. The distance problem is created from 2 different things: 1) the sound/pressure wave of the tremor has only a certain initial energy that becomes weaker as the wave spreads out in all directions. This means that at some point the energy has dissipated into the random energy of the transmitting medium and the initial tremor is undetectable. 2) you actually need at least 2 "reception centers" for picking up the tremor in order to use triangulation to determine both distance and direction. This why I was saying in earlier posts that the PC would have to be barefoot and/or nearly naked in order to be able to use tremor sense effectively. Further any sort of added force protection (Mage armor, shield spell, +1 ring of protection, etc) would tend to block the tremor sense. So the PC would have to be spending ASIs on dex and other stats to raise the bonuses to AC from their class to stay anything close to even in AC at higher levels.
In theory, keen hearing could potentially be substituted for vision as both make use of the brain to sort out all the different original and reflected waves (light or sound) that the person receives via their sensory organs (eyes or ears). The problem is that vision is far mor detailed simply because it its waves are far smaller allowing for better discrimination of position and distance as the base distance between the eyes is many multiples of the wavelengths involved while the ears of anything short of an elephant or whale head are not far enough apart for the brain to accurately sort out the exact positions. so keen hearing would provide a "fuzzy" image at best - like my example of the cheating students in the posts above. I would not surprised to discover at some time in the near future that SONAR systems are providing operators not just a sort of blip on the screen showing distance and directions but are actually show the outside environment in 2D or 3D given that the SONAR receptors can be far enough apart on the ships to provide the equivalent spacing that our heads provide to the eyes. Heck that idea is more than 50 years old as I read it initially inthe Tom Swift Jr books more than 50 years ago.
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Edit: Oops, I see know it's not a 5e feat, but anyway, it's goes like this:
I would like to build a more balanced way of Daredevil kind of character, how would you build the "seeing" part?
It depends on how you're adding these in. Are you doing it mechanically, ie they have to tame feats to do it? Or just gifting the character these traits? What are the ranges?
I think a safer way to go is to have him see normally, mechanically speaking, but just "skin" it as though he's using special senses to "see". Perhaps choose a race that has Darkvision or take the feat as a Variant Human. Mechanically, it's all perfectly legit, but your monk is reskinned as being blind but uses special senses to "see" instead.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Depends on the range of those.
Daredevil effectively has those senses out to extra human ranges far beyond what humans could normally even perceive. In 5th, typically extra senses like darkvision and blindsight go out to 30/60 and sometimes 120. Twilight Cleric is a true exception giving Darkvision to 300, but as a subclass feature.
All of that being said, you have to keep in mind what each of those do and then how do they compliment. Both are listed below:
So blindsight effectively gives the player the ability to see as a NPC would for mechanical purposes like attacks and skill checks. Tremorsense gives additional beyond that, such as noticing how many people might be behind a wall/door because of their vibrations.
Crawford has some interesting takes on both of those. Blindsight does negate things like blindness as it relates to darkness because it isn't using sight to perceive. He's also stated that just because a thing has tremorsense doesn't mean it automatically just KNOWS everything is moving, like say Toph from Avatar or Daredevil. If things are making active decisions to stealth, they can still make it past someone with these senses in the right conditions.
All in, there is a lot of mechanical grey area that would come into play here and it all relates to how creative the player is with how they describe their uses of these senses and how the DM perceives them. Using Daredevil as an example? Daredevil can hear someones heartbeat and know if they are lying. He can run his fingers over standard ink(not braille) and can read. His vision is omnidirectional at all times. Typical detection range is 500+ feet.
Further to that, my character has a homebrew item that grants him a kind of tremorsense. Recently our group encountered a wall of inky blackness, roiling towards them. With normal vision, it was easily seen, but it was invisible to my enhanced sense. DM ruling (which I agree with) is it would have to be a very heavy fog, or a creature in mist/gas form for my sense to perceive it. No problem now that I know and better understand, but a clear limitation to the sense as a balance for the benefits.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
Blindsight 30 ft is itself overpowered. It is better than Devil Sight in many ways.
Blindsense 10 ft is a 14th level rogue ability.
Daredevil is a superhero and his main power is the blindsight ability. If you want to make something like him, consider a Monk subclass.
Of course, Blindsight out to 10 feet is also a fighting style, and can be taking with one of the TCoE feats.
I have a weird sense of humor.
I also make maps.(That's a link)
Blindsight out to a range of 30 feet isn’t OP if you’re completely blind beyond that radius.
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This. Daredevil doesn't have blindsight. Daredevil has a multitude of extraordinary senses that far surpass blindsight. He can individually detect ingredients in things provided there are at least 20 milligrams. He can detect heartbeats at 20 feet. He can track you by smell at 50 feet, and if hes spent approximately 5 minutes with you he can remember your scent and identify you by it. Even when completely blind and deaf, he can still detect people around him simply by the change in heat and air pressure around him.
This isn't just it though, he also has literal radar senses where he can project low level radio waves and sonar waves to give him that detection and 360 degree perception.
Blindsight isn't that. At all. Mechnically it just lets them see 30 feet, and beyond that they are literally useless.
Echolocalitation by humans in the real life is possible. You can search in internet about that.
If you're interested, this is the way I would build a blind character
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/109909-rob76s-unused-character-idea-5-ichii-kachikoshi
Sure, to a range of about 15-20 feet and then nada.
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Maybe a bit further - judging from the blind guy in CA that bicycles via echolocation, but I would guess 30-40’ max.
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That’s why I suggested 30 feet. 30 foot of blindsight and blinded beyond that radius, and cannot use blindsight if deafened seems fair to me.
Edit: Maybe add in keen hearing and smell too for advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on hearing and smell.
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A few further thoughts:
A) echolocation vs keen hearing - these are the 2 aspects of sonar - keen hearing is passive sonar- its range is much further than active (echo location) and, while it does give you a sense of distance and direction it doesn’t pinpoint things. (the teacher in the class hears you whispering and knows it’s from the left rear corner but isn’t sure which of the 3 of you in the corner is whispering on a test( so he “fireballs” the corner failing all 3 of you for cheating)). Echolocation is active - you create the sounds and listen for the echos allowing you to be much more precise in direction and location - but only in a limited range. Stealth can negate keen hearing but not echolocation. (Years ago I snuck up on a wild rabbit and touched it by walking very stealthily from directly behind it for about 30’ ( on gravel in cowboy boots no less)).
B) Tremor sense - first of all I as a DM would require that the character not be wearing boots/shoes/sandals of any sort - you have to be in contact with the ground to feel the tremors. That or be as close to nude as possible to feel the air pressure changes ( air tremors). So basically monks, barbarians and maybe sorcerors and wizards. I would also rule that the mage armor and shield spells block its action with their force effects. As with keen hearing since tremor sense is a passive sense stealth would be able to negate it ( stealth check vs perception check).
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I would agree generally especially if you keep the stealth vs perception checks. Also, remember smell perception is effectively negated by approaching from down wind so you may still have a stealth vs perception check there as well.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Mechanically, there are no advantages to height when it comes to smell or hearing based perception checks. It is about pure distance.
I say this because if a character is willing to go through with this character concept, finding ways to hinder them just blows. Even if it might play out in real life, this isn't real life, its a fantasy table top game.
Who said anything about height?
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
think about it for a sec would tremor sense not automatically detect something if it's weight passed over a certain threshold to the point where it would be like: "man, north 500 feet, approaching, 50 feet per second, 120.6 lbs."
certainly, the heavier/stronger the "foot stomp" the better able tremor sense would be at detecting the foot falls. However, it's quite possible for a man (or an elephant for that matter) to place their feet carefully and lightly creating no tremors or such weak ones that tremor sense becomes useless - hence the stealth check. The distance problem is created from 2 different things:
1) the sound/pressure wave of the tremor has only a certain initial energy that becomes weaker as the wave spreads out in all directions. This means that at some point the energy has dissipated into the random energy of the transmitting medium and the initial tremor is undetectable.
2) you actually need at least 2 "reception centers" for picking up the tremor in order to use triangulation to determine both distance and direction. This why I was saying in earlier posts that the PC would have to be barefoot and/or nearly naked in order to be able to use tremor sense effectively. Further any sort of added force protection (Mage armor, shield spell, +1 ring of protection, etc) would tend to block the tremor sense. So the PC would have to be spending ASIs on dex and other stats to raise the bonuses to AC from their class to stay anything close to even in AC at higher levels.
In theory, keen hearing could potentially be substituted for vision as both make use of the brain to sort out all the different original and reflected waves (light or sound) that the person receives via their sensory organs (eyes or ears). The problem is that vision is far mor detailed simply because it its waves are far smaller allowing for better discrimination of position and distance as the base distance between the eyes is many multiples of the wavelengths involved while the ears of anything short of an elephant or whale head are not far enough apart for the brain to accurately sort out the exact positions. so keen hearing would provide a "fuzzy" image at best - like my example of the cheating students in the posts above. I would not surprised to discover at some time in the near future that SONAR systems are providing operators not just a sort of blip on the screen showing distance and directions but are actually show the outside environment in 2D or 3D given that the SONAR receptors can be far enough apart on the ships to provide the equivalent spacing that our heads provide to the eyes. Heck that idea is more than 50 years old as I read it initially inthe Tom Swift Jr books more than 50 years ago.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.