Psi Limit states "There is a limit on the number of psi points you can spend to activate a psionic discipline." Hone the Blade is not a psionic discipline, it's a class feature provided by the Soul Knife at level 3. I do feel as though it was intended to be affected by the Psi Limit, that makes sense to me, I'm just not sure if the wording is intentional and +4 doesn't actually break the game as much as I expected or if they just missed that little detail, or if I've missed some wording somewhere that states class features that make use of psi-points count as disciplines or something.
One mystic can easily do a number of other classes' jobs without sacrificing much. If you total it up, there are 40 disciplines, each with an average of 4.25 "abilities" each (focus included). With 10 disciplines, that is a total of 42/43 abilties available to a mystic at any time. A level 20 wizard, the "versatile" spellcaster, can only prepare up to 25 spells (assuming Int is 20), plus cantrips.
Hold on, disciplines are not restricted depending on the Order you chose? As in, I'm an Avatar Mystic but let me just quickly become a huge acid blooded giant?
One mystic can easily do a number of other classes' jobs without sacrificing much. If you total it up, there are 40 disciplines, each with an average of 4.25 "abilities" each (focus included). With 10 disciplines, that is a total of 42/43 abilties available to a mystic at any time. A level 20 wizard, the "versatile" spellcaster, can only prepare up to 25 spells (assuming Int is 20), plus cantrips.
Hold on, disciplines are not restricted depending on the Order you chose? As in, I'm an Avatar Mystic but let me just quickly become a huge acid blooded giant?
That's even scarier than I thought.
Correct. The only limit you have is that for the orders that give you the bonus 2 Disciplines at 1st level have to be from the order you've chosen. So for everyone but the Soul Knife, you end up with 10 disciplines that you can swap around until you find that perfect fit. If Disciplines had a max of three abilities per discipline I'd say okay, but some have up to 6 or 7.
I think the versality is quite nice for the mystic, but I think what is missing is that the mystic has somehow to make a decision. It always has all its options available all the time. A wizard theoretically has an even bigger selection of possible abilities (spells), but he has to decide what to prepare.
Same should somehow apply to the mystic. I did not find a viable solution yet without breaking the versality, or making the mystic a clone of a normal spellcaster. What do you think?
I think talents are akin to cantrips, and those are very hard to get more of.
Thing is though, you can get more. By being a sorcerer you can get up to 6 without multiclassing, taking a feat, or picking a race for a cantrip. However with these talents, you can only ever get 4 and alot of them are really good making it an antagonizing decision.
That is a poor comparison, Sorcerer is unique in that it is the only class to get that many cantrips. The majority of casting classes get 4 or less. Cleric and wizard land at 5, Sorcerer at 6, and the rest is 4 or less.
The mystic is already way to versatile in it's current form, so asking for EVEN more makes me cringe. And your other example of them being OP like that is a big reason many of us DM's are having knee-jerk reactions to the class as a whole. As it stands now I believe most of what they have needs scrapped and they should start fresh again.
I don't know how powerful he is at low levels, but what I got from those 3 builds:
yes, they are versatile, but when you start choose disciplines, they aren't so versatiles. At level 8 you'll have 2 or 3 good focus to change, many disciplines you're choosing because of just one effect, probably none discipline you'll use all. Somethings are completly underpowered and others are better than similar spells (not all need to be equal or worse, so ok). The damage isn't that great unless you burn many psi points, so in a 6-8 encounters day the options will be: great versatility to psi points and low to avg damage, or good damage and no psi points left. At level 11+ even if you burn all psi points for damage, when you check the entire day, your damage still lower than fighter, paladin, barbarian, or sorlock. Ok, mystic don't need to be great at damage, they need to be great at versatility.
At high level the powerlevel decrease so much. Psionic Mastery is terrible compared with any 6+ spell level. You need one action to reach the pool and at least more two actions/bonus actions to use it. If you want to stack concentration spells, you'll need 3 to 6 actions/bonus actions to set all this. And when you compare all those effects with the good lvl 6+ spell that cost just one action, they're still underpower. The encounter is over when you finish to set your disciplines. Ok, they don't need to have same powerlevel as a lvl 6+spell, since they get more flexibility, but let the mystic activate more than one discipline with just one action using Psionic Mastery.
At High levels many low levels effects are waste of action/bonus action, somethings start to be terrible, like the 1-7 psi points for dice damage, you spend 5 psi points to do 5d10 + some effect and half damage if miss, while your talent do 4d10+5 for 0. Many disciplines have effects that are just a better version of previous one. So you don't have 40 discipline options at level 20, you only have 15 useful ones. The biggest you level, the lower useful effects.
too many thing consume your bonus action, soul blade are the worst, why the TWF design if you'll only use a bonus action attack 1/4 of the time or will limit all other effects you can do?
Maybe at low levels they are OP (I bet a moon druid lvl 2 is more), at mid levels they look pretty balanced to me, at high levels they are probably underpowered.
I loved the new system, 75% of mystic is great, they just need a little more balance.
The general consensus seems to be that it's too versatile at the moment. One mystic can easily do a number of other classes' jobs without sacrificing much. If you total it up, there are 40 disciplines, each with an average of 4.25 "abilities" each (focus included). With 10 disciplines, that is a total of 42/43 abilties available to a mystic at any time. A level 20 wizard, the "versatile" spellcaster, can only prepare up to 25 spells (assuming Int is 20), plus cantrips. The difference is a bit much.
Not really.
A 20th level Wizard with Intelligence 20 can prepare 25 spells, and can cast 23 spells, 9 of which (Ithree 5th, two 6th, two 7th, 1 8th, and 1 9th level spell) are equal to or superior in power level to what a Mystic can do.
A 20th level Mystic can have 10 Disciplines, and thus have 43 supernatural abilities that can be activated, but with 71 Psi Points, could only activate their 7 point cost ability (equivalent to a 5th level spell) 10 times.
While the mystic can access an additional 11 points four times a day, the wizard can regain 10 spell slots on a short rest.
So a Mystic can be twice as "prepared" as a Wizard... but can only do half as much, and at lower power levels.
Balanced.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
⬐If you thought I added value to the conversation, please let me know!
The general consensus seems to be that it's too versatile at the moment. One mystic can easily do a number of other classes' jobs without sacrificing much. If you total it up, there are 40 disciplines, each with an average of 4.25 "abilities" each (focus included). With 10 disciplines, that is a total of 42/43 abilties available to a mystic at any time. A level 20 wizard, the "versatile" spellcaster, can only prepare up to 25 spells (assuming Int is 20), plus cantrips. The difference is a bit much.
Not really.
A 20th level Wizard with Intelligence 20 can prepare 25 spells, and can cast 23 spells, 9 of which (Ithree 5th, two 6th, two 7th, 1 8th, and 1 9th level spell) are equal to or superior in power level to what a Mystic can do.
A 20th level Mystic can have 10 Disciplines, and thus have 43 supernatural abilities that can be activated, but with 71 Psi Points, could only activate their 7 point cost ability (equivalent to a 5th level spell) 10 times.
While the mystic can access an additional 11 points four times a day, the wizard can regain 10 spell slots on a short rest.
So a Mystic can be twice as "prepared" as a Wizard... but can only do half as much, and at lower power levels.
Balanced.
I see what you mean. You have a point about Mystics spending their Psi Points too quickly compared to spell slot usage.
My observation is they sort of plateau once they get the psi limit 7. Beforehand they can wreak some real havoc. A level 3 mystic with the Light and shadow mastery can summon 2 shadows which shreds an enemy strength score by 1d4 on hit and kills instantly when its reduced to 0, acid blood turns your immediate area into a kill zone at low levels. Beyond that some of your best abilities require concentration which is another limiter for mystics. The exception to that rule is the psionic mastery points. You can have multiple instances of concentration so long as you make sure they are all spent from that feature. At level 14 I have a goofball summoning gangs of shadow and eating entire villages, most of which propagate further gangs of uncontrollable shadows which I'm waiting for the opportune moment to drop on him for playing chaotic stupid(The normal results of CN/CE college kids jacked up on mountain dew.) But as i said post level ten effectiveness drops of hard as your abilities cant be made any stronger.
I'm actually a bit dissatisfied with the Mystic, which sucks because I was really psyched to begin with My complaint is that it seems like WotC is trying to make Mystic THE Psionic class when they should be building Psionics up to be their own system that supports multiple Psionic classes
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Abeir, Anchorome, Kara-Tur, Katashaka, Maztica, Zakhara, and Laerakond need some 5E love
I'm actually a bit dissatisfied with the Mystic, which sucks because I was really psyched to begin with My complaint is that it seems like WotC is trying to make Mystic THE Psionic class when they should be building Psionics up to be their own system that supports multiple Psionic classes
They're not going to go there. It would add a lot of complexity, and that's not what 5E is about.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
⬐If you thought I added value to the conversation, please let me know!
My observation is they sort of plateau once they get the psi limit 7. Beforehand they can wreak some real havoc. A level 3 mystic with the Light and shadow mastery can summon 2 shadows which shreds an enemy strength score by 1d4 on hit and kills instantly when its reduced to 0, acid blood turns your immediate area into a kill zone at low levels. Beyond that some of your best abilities require concentration which is another limiter for mystics. The exception to that rule is the psionic mastery points. You can have multiple instances of concentration so long as you make sure they are all spent from that feature. At level 14 I have a goofball summoning gangs of shadow and eating entire villages, most of which propagate further gangs of uncontrollable shadows which I'm waiting for the opportune moment to drop on him for playing chaotic stupid(The normal results of CN/CE college kids jacked up on mountain dew.) But as i said post level ten effectiveness drops of hard as your abilities cant be made any stronger.
agree 100% about lvl 10 plateau.
To make a "army of shadows" at level 15, you in fact can have a max of 6, you need 4 actions to do that (one to reach the psionic mastery pool and other 3 to conjure them) and they least just one minute, so they are useless in combat. They hit with +4 and get 19HP, at level 15, they'll die before get a hit. Now compare with any good lvl 6+ spell.
All features of Light and shadow mastery (except the first one with the focus) are useless at high levels. This happen with many other disciplines. Your advance levels, you get more disciplines but each time you have less useful effects of each discipline.
The action economy of psiconic mastery is terrible, make stack concentration useless in combat since they need many actions/bonus actions.
I think the outstanding versatility of the mystic is entirely intentional. The mystic is likely going to be the only psionic class we get. Your choice of mystic order is essentially your choice of what psionic class you were going to play in previous editions.
Want to play a soulknife? Obviously, pick Order of the Soulknife. Want to play a psychic warrior? Order of the Immortal is your best bet. Likewise, other orders neatly epitomize specialized psions, like telepaths, kinetiscists, nomands, etc.
The mystic class in this form, is essentially the entire width and breadth of psionic class options.
The general consensus seems to be that it's too versatile at the moment. One mystic can easily do a number of other classes' jobs without sacrificing much. If you total it up, there are 40 disciplines, each with an average of 4.25 "abilities" each (focus included). With 10 disciplines, that is a total of 42/43 abilties available to a mystic at any time. A level 20 wizard, the "versatile" spellcaster, can only prepare up to 25 spells (assuming Int is 20), plus cantrips. The difference is a bit much.
Not really.
A 20th level Wizard with Intelligence 20 can prepare 25 spells, and can cast 23 spells, 9 of which (Ithree 5th, two 6th, two 7th, 1 8th, and 1 9th level spell) are equal to or superior in power level to what a Mystic can do.
A 20th level Mystic can have 10 Disciplines, and thus have 43 supernatural abilities that can be activated, but with 71 Psi Points, could only activate their 7 point cost ability (equivalent to a 5th level spell) 10 times.
While the mystic can access an additional 11 points four times a day, the wizard can regain 10 spell slots on a short rest.
So a Mystic can be twice as "prepared" as a Wizard... but can only do half as much, and at lower power levels.
Balanced.
Agreed! Everyone keeps saying it's OP or Broken...um, lest they forget what a psionic class USED to be, this is now tame. I love the Mystic, I think it's fine. I don't like how the soul knife doesn't get the extra disciplines...but maybe that's because they can be more of a martial class?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"...Debts must always be paid, sometimes in more than blood and gold. But this is Ordo Ursa," Ren places his hand on Erakas's chest, right where the Dragonborn's heart is. "Right here. And it always has been and always will be. Don't ever forget that. Because I won't."
Serandis Mendaen (Aereni Elven Rogue/maybe one day Wizard)- Project Point Playtest
I'm actually a bit dissatisfied with the Mystic, which sucks because I was really psyched to begin with My complaint is that it seems like WotC is trying to make Mystic THE Psionic class when they should be building Psionics up to be their own system that supports multiple Psionic classes
Though I do understand where you are coming from, I do, I feel like when that was the case with 3.5 and that didn't fly so well. It worked but within the broken parameters. Psions were fun as hell to play in 3.5 but they also were more powerful than most other classes their level. I agree with what Halaku said, it would add a degree of complexity and 5E really is about keeping the game basic without a huge break from how the core mechanics are run. My one wish with the Mystic class is that it is perfected soon...I want Eberron already and I can't be an Inspired agent if I can't be Mystical! lol
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"...Debts must always be paid, sometimes in more than blood and gold. But this is Ordo Ursa," Ren places his hand on Erakas's chest, right where the Dragonborn's heart is. "Right here. And it always has been and always will be. Don't ever forget that. Because I won't."
Serandis Mendaen (Aereni Elven Rogue/maybe one day Wizard)- Project Point Playtest
Though I do understand where you are coming from, I do, I feel like when that was the case with 3.5 and that didn't fly so well. It worked but within the broken parameters. Psions were fun as hell to play in 3.5 but they also were more powerful than most other classes their level. I agree with what Halaku said, it would add a degree of complexity and 5E really is about keeping the game basic without a huge break from how the core mechanics are run. My one wish with the Mystic class is that it is perfected soon...I want Eberron already and I can't be an Inspired agent if I can't be Mystical! lol
It seems that in its quest for simplicity, D&D5 lost quite a bit of power. I am also playing Pathfinder (In Eberron) and while it is complicated at times, its breadth is incomparable to D&D5.
Though I do understand where you are coming from, I do, I feel like when that was the case with 3.5 and that didn't fly so well. It worked but within the broken parameters. Psions were fun as hell to play in 3.5 but they also were more powerful than most other classes their level. I agree with what Halaku said, it would add a degree of complexity and 5E really is about keeping the game basic without a huge break from how the core mechanics are run. My one wish with the Mystic class is that it is perfected soon...I want Eberron already and I can't be an Inspired agent if I can't be Mystical! lol
It seems that in its quest for simplicity, D&D5 lost quite a bit of power. I am also playing Pathfinder (In Eberron) and while it is complicated at times, its breadth is incomparable to D&D5.
I'm okay with that, though.I also play Pathfinder right now on top of running 5e and I get the draw for Pathfinder. I love it, but it is horribly broken. If you want raw power and super customization, then Pathfinder is the way to go. I love that they have the license to continue to put our more and more for the system but I love what 5E has done. It shows that you don't need to have the biggest, badest most complicated system to have fun.
With Pathfinder I find it hard to make a class I want to play unless I fill in for the Meta they have created. I tried playing a ninja with a skald in the party, a sorcerer, a slayer and a barbarian...I was badass, like, I could assassinate without even having to prestige but I could barely keep up with the party. I barely hit anything and my damage was low. D&D 5E took the OP away...and I commend them for that. Especially in the face of Pathfinder's crazy success. Now in Pathfinder I am playing a paladin and having a lot more fun. I loved that ninja but I had to retire him because he wasn't viable as a class for that game.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"...Debts must always be paid, sometimes in more than blood and gold. But this is Ordo Ursa," Ren places his hand on Erakas's chest, right where the Dragonborn's heart is. "Right here. And it always has been and always will be. Don't ever forget that. Because I won't."
Serandis Mendaen (Aereni Elven Rogue/maybe one day Wizard)- Project Point Playtest
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Psi Limit states "There is a limit on the number of psi points you can spend to activate a psionic discipline." Hone the Blade is not a psionic discipline, it's a class feature provided by the Soul Knife at level 3. I do feel as though it was intended to be affected by the Psi Limit, that makes sense to me, I'm just not sure if the wording is intentional and +4 doesn't actually break the game as much as I expected or if they just missed that little detail, or if I've missed some wording somewhere that states class features that make use of psi-points count as disciplines or something.
Start from the beginning and go on till the end; then stop.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
ModeratorSite Rules & Guidelines || How to Tooltip || Contact Support || Changelog || Pricing FAQ || Homebrew FAQ
If you have questions/concerns, please Private Message me or another moderator.
Wary the wizard who focuses on homebrew, for he can create nightmares that you wouldn't even dream of
I feel that they should be divided by Orders, not by amount of Disciplines per character. It would make more sense story-wise.
Start from the beginning and go on till the end; then stop.
I think the versality is quite nice for the mystic, but I think what is missing is that the mystic has somehow to make a decision. It always has all
its options available all the time. A wizard theoretically has an even bigger selection of possible abilities (spells), but he has to decide what to
prepare.
Same should somehow apply to the mystic. I did not find a viable solution yet without breaking the versality, or making the mystic a clone of a normal
spellcaster. What do you think?
A wizard can have a rather large pool of prepared spells, though, whereas a mystic can't change his disciplines on a day to day basis.
The upper level spells that wizards get that mystics can't touch help to balance everything out, too.
⬐ If you thought I added value to the conversation, please let me know!
i did three mystic builds, level 8, 12 and 20.
I don't know how powerful he is at low levels, but what I got from those 3 builds:
yes, they are versatile, but when you start choose disciplines, they aren't so versatiles. At level 8 you'll have 2 or 3 good focus to change, many disciplines you're choosing because of just one effect, probably none discipline you'll use all. Somethings are completly underpowered and others are better than similar spells (not all need to be equal or worse, so ok). The damage isn't that great unless you burn many psi points, so in a 6-8 encounters day the options will be: great versatility to psi points and low to avg damage, or good damage and no psi points left. At level 11+ even if you burn all psi points for damage, when you check the entire day, your damage still lower than fighter, paladin, barbarian, or sorlock. Ok, mystic don't need to be great at damage, they need to be great at versatility.
At high level the powerlevel decrease so much. Psionic Mastery is terrible compared with any 6+ spell level. You need one action to reach the pool and at least more two actions/bonus actions to use it. If you want to stack concentration spells, you'll need 3 to 6 actions/bonus actions to set all this. And when you compare all those effects with the good lvl 6+ spell that cost just one action, they're still underpower. The encounter is over when you finish to set your disciplines. Ok, they don't need to have same powerlevel as a lvl 6+spell, since they get more flexibility, but let the mystic activate more than one discipline with just one action using Psionic Mastery.
At High levels many low levels effects are waste of action/bonus action, somethings start to be terrible, like the 1-7 psi points for dice damage, you spend 5 psi points to do 5d10 + some effect and half damage if miss, while your talent do 4d10+5 for 0. Many disciplines have effects that are just a better version of previous one. So you don't have 40 discipline options at level 20, you only have 15 useful ones. The biggest you level, the lower useful effects.
too many thing consume your bonus action, soul blade are the worst, why the TWF design if you'll only use a bonus action attack 1/4 of the time or will limit all other effects you can do?
Maybe at low levels they are OP (I bet a moon druid lvl 2 is more), at mid levels they look pretty balanced to me, at high levels they are probably underpowered.
I loved the new system, 75% of mystic is great, they just need a little more balance.
A 20th level Wizard with Intelligence 20 can prepare 25 spells, and can cast 23 spells, 9 of which (Ithree 5th, two 6th, two 7th, 1 8th, and 1 9th level spell) are equal to or superior in power level to what a Mystic can do.
A 20th level Mystic can have 10 Disciplines, and thus have 43 supernatural abilities that can be activated, but with 71 Psi Points, could only activate their 7 point cost ability (equivalent to a 5th level spell) 10 times.
⬐ If you thought I added value to the conversation, please let me know!
My observation is they sort of plateau once they get the psi limit 7. Beforehand they can wreak some real havoc. A level 3 mystic with the Light and shadow mastery can summon 2 shadows which shreds an enemy strength score by 1d4 on hit and kills instantly when its reduced to 0, acid blood turns your immediate area into a kill zone at low levels. Beyond that some of your best abilities require concentration which is another limiter for mystics. The exception to that rule is the psionic mastery points. You can have multiple instances of concentration so long as you make sure they are all spent from that feature. At level 14 I have a goofball summoning gangs of shadow and eating entire villages, most of which propagate further gangs of uncontrollable shadows which I'm waiting for the opportune moment to drop on him for playing chaotic stupid(The normal results of CN/CE college kids jacked up on mountain dew.) But as i said post level ten effectiveness drops of hard as your abilities cant be made any stronger.
I'm actually a bit dissatisfied with the Mystic, which sucks because I was really psyched to begin with
My complaint is that it seems like WotC is trying to make Mystic THE Psionic class when they should be building Psionics up to be their own system that supports multiple Psionic classes
Abeir, Anchorome, Kara-Tur, Katashaka, Maztica, Zakhara, and Laerakond need some 5E love
⬐ If you thought I added value to the conversation, please let me know!
how I delet that?
agree 100% about lvl 10 plateau.
To make a "army of shadows" at level 15, you in fact can have a max of 6, you need 4 actions to do that (one to reach the psionic mastery pool and other 3 to conjure them) and they least just one minute, so they are useless in combat. They hit with +4 and get 19HP, at level 15, they'll die before get a hit. Now compare with any good lvl 6+ spell.
All features of Light and shadow mastery (except the first one with the focus) are useless at high levels. This happen with many other disciplines. Your advance levels, you get more disciplines but each time you have less useful effects of each discipline.
The action economy of psiconic mastery is terrible, make stack concentration useless in combat since they need many actions/bonus actions.
I think the outstanding versatility of the mystic is entirely intentional. The mystic is likely going to be the only psionic class we get. Your choice of mystic order is essentially your choice of what psionic class you were going to play in previous editions.
Want to play a soulknife? Obviously, pick Order of the Soulknife. Want to play a psychic warrior? Order of the Immortal is your best bet. Likewise, other orders neatly epitomize specialized psions, like telepaths, kinetiscists, nomands, etc.
The mystic class in this form, is essentially the entire width and breadth of psionic class options.
"...Debts must always be paid, sometimes in more than blood and gold. But this is Ordo Ursa," Ren places his hand on Erakas's chest, right where the Dragonborn's heart is. "Right here. And it always has been and always will be. Don't ever forget that. Because I won't."
Serandis Mendaen (Aereni Elven Rogue/maybe one day Wizard)- Project Point Playtest
"...Debts must always be paid, sometimes in more than blood and gold. But this is Ordo Ursa," Ren places his hand on Erakas's chest, right where the Dragonborn's heart is. "Right here. And it always has been and always will be. Don't ever forget that. Because I won't."
Serandis Mendaen (Aereni Elven Rogue/maybe one day Wizard)- Project Point Playtest
Check out all my important links here.
May we live in Less Interesting Times
"...Debts must always be paid, sometimes in more than blood and gold. But this is Ordo Ursa," Ren places his hand on Erakas's chest, right where the Dragonborn's heart is. "Right here. And it always has been and always will be. Don't ever forget that. Because I won't."
Serandis Mendaen (Aereni Elven Rogue/maybe one day Wizard)- Project Point Playtest